Recently, I published a post around one of my favorite quotes from Ayn Rand:
“Honor is self-esteem made visible.”
As usual, readers provided outstanding and insightful comments, interpreting the quote from various angles.
One, from my friend and frequent commentor, Steve Boyett, was rather disturbing to me though. The reason is that — if what he wrote is true — it would poke a hole in the saying that I really didn’t see, rendering it not true 100 percent of the time.
He suggested that a thief (which, could include a burglar, a dishonest business person, a dictator, etc.) could possess high self-esteem based on their ability to steal. I countered that — while they might feel a certain pride at their success as a thief or thug — it is difficult for me to imagine (even if they don’t care that what they are doing is wrong) their actually having high self-esteem as a result.
Steve then wrote: “There are plenty of people in this world with plenty of ‘self-esteem’ who lack honor. As a matter of fact, it boils down to what are literally the most dangerous of all who exist; those with competence but lacking character.”
While I agree with the second sentence above — regarding the most dangerous people — I don’t agree with Steve in terms of their possessing self-esteem. Then again, I’m not saying he’s wrong. I can only know what I think, and coming from my own belief systems.
So, I’d like to put this question up for discussion:
Can someone who does something that would be — without question* — considered anti-social by any rational person also have high self-esteem?
Wikipedia.com describes self-esteem as a [reflection of] a person’s overall evaluation or appraisal of his or her own worth.
With that in mind, can a Bernie Madoff or a Ted Bundy have high self-esteem? Or, is it merely ego-maniacal pride at their proficiency at doing something evil?
I’d love to know your opinions.
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*This can be a bit “slippery” as, what one considers good another might consider bad. So, for the sake of this discussion, let’s look at this anti-social behavior as being from “consciously stealing/taking advantage of others” and worse.
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dear bob! great topic for discussion.
i believe that good and bad has same properties with opposite impact. good is good for good people .., bad is good for bad people. the person who does anti-social, can whether be a “mentally retarded” or be well planned. Self-Esteem of mentally retarded doesnt matter. The well planned guy knows what he does.., and what he does is GOOD in his own way, gets proud of what he does & what he gets, self-esteemed by all the GOOD done by him.
To have a high self esteem is to be at a point where we want only those things that are truly the best for us, things that grow us, make us better people, and better those around us. It is to have a healthy self love, which leads to a healthy love of others, even the “unlovable” (“the least of these”).
Therefore, I do not believe that one who is a thief has high self esteem. Yes, I too am coming at it from my own belief system, my own filters, my own experience, but those are my thoughts on the matter.
Thanks for a great thought provoking post.
Bob, interesting proposition!
I think the key word in the definition of self-esteem would be “worth”. Even though a thief or other person doing anti-social acts may be proud of their technical abilities, it would be difficult to rationally assign them a “worth” or value. By definition, they are stealing, destroying, or otherwise engaging in unproductive behavior. If they are not adding to the universe, and making it better, what worth could they have? They may be wealthier or more satisfied with their life (at least in their own minds and in the short term) but that was by taking something from another place, just moving it around, not adding value. So, what could their “worth” be in the largest of contexts?
Thanks for the discussion.
Wonderful topic up for discussion Bob , and also i will say great contribution from Steve because he makes us see it from another angel too . I think Steve’s argument is that if some one who is having a bad character succeeds in business or becomes a president or something it suggest he has high self esteem .
Well i come from Africa where its very common to have such bad people in top positions .But one thing Steve should understand is that not everyone in a top position is a leader , Some are just Ego birds and do everything to succeed even by stepping on others . Like Rajeev mentioned “the person who does anti-social, can either be a “mentally retarded” or be well planned. Self-Esteem of mentally retarded doesn’t matter. ”
In my opinion Evil has no Self Esteem . Also each persons answer will depend on his or her belief system because we are a product of our thought .
Bob,
Very difficult topic but that much interesting. Thank you for bringing it up.
The way I see it is:
Self-Esteeem is about liking ourselves. When we think we possess good qualities that are helpful for others – not just self, and therefore, we believe that we deserve good things in life – we have high self-esteem. When we believe in our heart that our activity is making this world, a better place and we can make a positive difference in the society- we have high self-esteem.
Self-image is another aspect of looking at our self worth. How we see ourselves? Do we think we are intelligent, attractive, unattractive, popular, famous, notorious etc? These define our self-image. Now, a person such as Bernie Madoff or a Ted Bundy may have a high self-image ( I think….?)
In fact, people such as Bernie Madoff or a Ted Bundy may also have a high sense of self-respect because they can get success in doing what they do even if it is not beneficial to others in the society. But success brings ego, success brings pride and that might get confused with self-respect.
But Self-Esteem to evil? Absolutely not! People can get confused about it…. but self-esteem is a positive word and evil just can’t have it – I believe 🙂
Best Regards,
Kumar
LOVE your question Bob!
It’s like asking “Can twisted or sick minds have high self esteem?” I think they can, but it’s still twisted or sick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone has a “tone” they are on! could be e.g. boredom, enthusiasm, hidden hostility, content or action. (This is one of the things I use, when I do personal coaching, to find out what you can expect from that person, and what “tool” to use to help this person.) To everyone self esteem shows up differently.
To have TRUE self esteem, in my oppinion, you have to be quite positive in your thinking and with that a high toned person like enthusiasm, strong interest or what ever they can be called those “high” levels of beingness. AND with true self esteem you create REAL LASTING value to others and yourself.
Hugs and love from Denmark
Clearly all of you aren’t paying attention to the definition of the concept “self-esteem”; Wikipedia says:
– “Self-esteem is a term in psychology to reflect a person’s overall evaluation or appraisal of his or her own worth. It is conceptualized as an attitude toward the self and is similar to a judgment of oneself. Self-esteem encompasses beliefs (for example, “I am competent”, “I am worthy”) and emotions such as triumph, despair, pride and shame.[1] ‘The self-concept is what we think about the self; self-esteem, the positive or negative evaluations of the self, is how we feel about it'”
I recall, an attitude toward the self and is similar to a judgment of oneself… Even though it might be influenced by the appraisals of others, the self-esteem doesn’t include evaluation from others, only from self.
Keeping that in mind, then those you call “evil”, indeed can have self-esteem. Honor, on the other hand, is a concept built on the respect showed by others, it’s sociable molded and doesn’t have nothing to do with self-esteem.
Greets.
NO, I believe that self esteem is self regard. If a person truely regards themself, they would nurture and protect their heart and soul, by walking in character and integrity.
Ok. For discussion purposes let’s say that Satan is alive. Undoubtedly he is evil and I doubt he suffers from lack of self-esteem. Furthermore, Love is Not Proud.
Pride is the seed of separation that leads to destruction. Humility is the seed of unity that leads to honor.
With our freedom of choice comes the responsibility of humility and service. When we consider the worth and work of others, isn’t it those that gave more than they took that we remember? Those who understand that impacting lives for the good of all give their lives in selfless service.
Today, I woke up in a home I didn’t build; drove to work on streets I didn’t pave; and went to work in a free country. Each day we stand on the shoulders of giants who have paid the price for our way of life.
I wanted to start a list of people. It would of course include our veterans, founding fathers and leaders of faith and peace. But I don’t think any of the people I would list are looking for glorification. I think they simply set a standard by being an example of what we are all called and perhaps designed to be.
How do you define self esteem? How do you define arrogance? It seems these words are often confused. To esteem ones self is to find internal value, and to prefer that value beyond selfishness. Like disciplining yourself to learn, grow or accomplish a task like providing for your family. From my worldview self esteem is fostered by a high valuation of ones core. On the other hand arrogance also sees a high self valuation, but its foundation is a prideful belief that I am better than others and am thereby entitled to what others have. The difficulty with this sort of arrogance is that others rarely share this exalted self view and make rules, policies and laws to protect themselves.
The quote “Honor is self-esteem made visible.” seems to focus on a core value of honor. Perhaps that is the word we should be discussing.
Hi All – please know that while I’m not commenting on your comments (purposely, as I already shared my opinion with you in the post and I’m much more interested in knowing yours), I’m reading all of them, and enjoying them very much. Thank you for taking the time to comment. I know it’s causing all of us who read your comments to think deeper than we otherwise might…and that’s always a good thing. 🙂
It seems that the REAL question is whether or not we believe that someone could commit evil or be truly anti-social and, deep in their hearts, not believe it is wrong. I would contend that every one of us was made in the image and likeness of a loving God. So, because that is true (which I absolutely believe), then everyone, while fallen, has good in them.
Because this good, while repressed, exists inside everyone; there is no one who completely “lacks character,” as Mr. Boyett stated. Think of it this way: ff you were in a room 50 miles high by 50 miles wide by 50 miles long, and lit a match; even though the light does not travel far, the room is not COMPLETELY dark.
Finally, if Bernie Madoff or Ted Bundy TRULY had high self-esteem because they felt that what they were doing was right; they would have never tried to hide their acts. They would have put them out into the open, with the belief that a rational society would see that their acts were OK.
I think the best way to answer this question is to ask someone who is a anti-social this question. My thought would be that within the group you will have a few that truly do believe that their actions may be for the greater good (like a Robin Hood type person), but overall they know what they do is wrong and they don’t feel good about themselves. Hmmm….now too find some antisocial people…..
Hello Bob,
Ask yourself… “Did Hitler command respect?” and “What did this do for his self-esteem?”
While any rational person, interested in the fairest principles that govern society, is abhorred by such atrocities, in Hitler’s mind, he BELIEVED he was doing the world a favor by eradicating the Jewish people, and not only derived his personal sense of worth by doing so, but believed his actions to be honorable. In this sense, one may conclude that he took “Honor is self-esteem made visible” to the extreme in the NEGATIVE sense.
Bob,
For me self-esteem is about the ability to love ourselves for who we are.
Some of us believe that who we are is a function of how much money we make, the recognition we get or the power and status of our job title. These people are what I call Human-Havings because for them their self-esteem is based on what they have. They believe they own everything – from their cars and houses to their relationships.
The curse with the Human-Havings is not being able to have enough. Once they get one thing, they always look forward for the next thing… Why? Because loving ourselves based on what we have is like filling a glass with no bottom. You fill it with the best wine but you can never taste it… They live inside the “Once” curse that goes like this: “Once I have this, then I’ll feel happy”. Then they got it and go: “Once I have THAT, then I’ll feel happy”… It never ends.
The Human-Having lives for Success and studies the science of achievement because their self-esteem is based on getting what they want. If they don’t get it, they don’t feel like losers – they believe that THEY ARE losers.
Now, others believe that who they are isn’t attach to what they own. These people believe that they don’t own anything. For them everything is on a loan. What they treasure most is who they love and who loves them.
They believe that they’re here to create meaning in the World by fulfilling their purpose. Their happiness is based on their ability to be grateful for what that’s not granted: EVERYTHING! Their sense joy is based on knowing that they’re honoring their God-given talents by living every day in full alignment with who they are.
These people are what I call Human-Beings because for them their self-esteem is rooted in who they are. They seek Glory first and Success second. For them, Glory is being willing to live and die for their legacy in the World. When they fail on their journey, they don’t believe that THEY ARE failures or losers. While they do expect to win, they don’t attach their self-esteem to it. They know that their value within is priceless and comparing it to an Earthly thing would not be wise.
They also believe that the only way they can lose is if they quit trying, learning and growing to become ALL that they can be.
So, can a killer have self-esteem? Yes, if they love themselves enough to live in alignment with what they believe is who they are and what they’re here to do. Psychopaths have a deep sense of purpose (in a sick way). For them, their sense of fulfillment comes from bringing pain to the World.
That’s what happens when somewhere in your journey LOVE left your Heart… The easiest way to replace a strong emotion like Love is with Hate, and that’s usually the route they take.
Hope that I could add some perspective into this already very insightful discussion!
Hi Bob. With all due respect.. Esteem is equal to regard.
If one who has been declared evil regards themselves as righteous, then the answer is yes; evil can have self esteem. But they probably wouldn’t declare themselves as evil.
When discussing these things remember that there is a difference between principles and values. Evil people can have good values. Working quickly for example is a good value. Not doing evil however is a principle.
Thanks Bob,
Good afternoon.
How would we , observing, tell the difference? True self esteem is at peace with one’s self and our place in the universe. It is lead by intention, and followed by results which bring added value and peace to ourselves and those around us, both at home and at work. Joyful!
False self esteem would be entangled with anxiety, and bounced up and down by daily circumstances. It sets in motion an adversarial relationship with those around us, as we must protect an ill gotten position or gain. Unhappy!
Performing an intrinsically evil act, even skillfully, is entangled with anxiety, fear, thrill, or whatever the individual will call it. It is not a peaceful practice. One’s thoughts would have moments of panic even, about being revealed, or caught. False self esteem would appear as someone not comfortable in their own skin.
Read this and many of the blog comments. Bad and evil people can easily regard themselves well — it’s part of their delusions, their mental illness, their inflated ego-consciousness.
Once again Bob Thanks for Giving Us a Very Thought Provoking Topic… That Being Said… My Thought… Self Esteem comes from Self Worth… Self Worth comes from Giving not Taking… Ego is Often Confused as Self Esteem… Meaning This Person will more times than not… Over Compensate by Buying Big Houses, Fancy Cars… as I Like To Say “Hooked on Their Own Press Release!”… It’s Nice to have Nice Things… However, Not at The Expense of Others… Looking Deep into Someone’s Character and Behavior… a Bernie Madoff or a Ted Bundy and You will Fine This Person Very Rarely Changes… Only Gets Worse…
The wording in Ayn’s quote isn’t quite right, although for the time of its writing it may have been. There is a big difference between self ESTEEM and self WORTH. I don’t know that there always has been. Self esteem seems to indicate that we feel good about ourselves. Yes, a thief can have that. Self worth is an indication of our understanding that we have value as humans, and that we have something to offer of ourselves to humanity. So a tyrant may have self esteem but has inadequate genuine self worth. Self worth invokes a drive to service, not through a defined characteristic of self worth, but from an understanding of having value to offer.
Hi All – again, while one of the relatively few times I have not responded directly to your comments, please know that it’s only because I had already provided my thoughts in the original post and was much more excited about knowing YOUR thoughts.
Thank you so much – ALL OF YOU – for sharing your comments, thoughts, wisdom, suggestions, etc. I think you are amazing and please know I have read all of your comments and LEARNED MUCH from them!!